RAMESVARA: I have heard there is a
philosophy here amongst some of the devotees that if you chant Hare
Krishna, you can go back to the spiritual world even if you do not give
up your independence.
PRABHUPADA: What is that?
RAMESVARA: Many devotees who have moved outside of the temple are feeling that if they just continue to chant Hare Krishna, they can go back to the spiritual world, but they are not giving up their independence.
PRABHUPADA: So? What is your
philosophy?
RAMESVARA: Well, it seems somewhat hypocritical because chanting Hare Krishna means you are praying to Krishna to please be engaged eternally in His service and to become completely dependent on Him. So we try to explain like that. And to follow all the teachings and instructions, attending mangala aratik and morning and evening class.
PRABHUPADA: So they are doing that or not?
GURUKRPA: No. They are not even following regulative principles.
PRABHUPADA: Then?
RAMESVARA: They think just by chanting, they will go back to the spiritual world. That is enough.
PRABHUPADA: Then what is the meaning of the ten kinds of offenses? If he is chanting without offense, then it is all right, but if he is committing offenses, it will not be effective. There are ten kinds of offenses. Whether he is strictly offenseless? Then it is all right. If he is offender, then it will not be fruitful. It will be fruitful; it will take long time because first of all you have to become offenseless. Then you will be admitted. ... So they are committing offenses, so how they can become perfect? He is committing not following the rules and regulation. That means he is thinking that "Whatever I do, it will be adjusted by chanting the name." Is it not?
GURUKRPA: Yes. That's one of the offenses.
RAMESVARA: That is their philosophy.
PRABHUPADA: That is their philosophy. That is the greatest offense, namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih, that "I can go on committing sinful activity, but by chanting Hare Krishna mantra, it will be adjusted." That is the greatest offense. So explain to them.
GURUKRPA: So they say, "Then my chanting is useless? So I should stop?" That's what they say.
PRABHUPADA: No, not useless. But just like if you kindle fire and at the same time pour water, it will take long time. To kindle fire, make it dry, keep it dry. Then it will be very quickly successful. So you are committing offenses, at the same time chanting, so by chanting effect, you will come to that stage, but it will take time. If you want to be transferred to the spiritual world quickly, just like if you want to ignite the fire very quickly, you must keep it dry. If you simply put on the wet wood, then the fire will not be very powerful. It will be... It will take time. The fire will be blazing fire. Then it will dry. It will take... Better put dry wood to make it successful. This is the process. The effect of chanting Hare Krishna will not go in vain, but it will take time. Namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. Because he is thinking "By the strength of chanting Hare Krishna mantra, I can do anything, all sinful activities, and it will be adjusted," that is the greatest offense—not only offense, the greatest offense. Namnad balad yasya hi papa-buddhih.
SIDDHA-SVARUP: It is very difficult to put everyone who is living outside of the temple in one category. Some people, they are... many people that I know living outside are following strictly the regulative principles, and they are...
PRABHUPADA: Huh?
SIDDHA-SVARUP: They are strictly following regulative principles and chanting their rounds and having morning aratik in their homes. And evening also, they are chanting. So instead of fighting, I think we should only try to encourage everybody to chant and follow the regulative principles.
PRABHUPADA: No, that is... Whether you live in temple or outside temple, the rules and regulation and the process must be followed. Then you are successful. It doesn't matter that you have to live in the temple. Grihe thako vane thako, 'ha gauranga' bo'le tako. Not that everyone has to live in the temple. If he does not agree with other Godbrothers, friends, he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation. That is wanted. But if you live with devotees, it will be automatically done.
SIDDHA-SVARUP: Easy.
PRABHUPADA: Therefore it is recommended that you live with devotees. But if you cannot agree with the devotees, you have got your own opinion, then you cannot make a new opinion so far the process is concerned. That must be followed. This is not good idea, that "Whatever I do, it is my independence, and I will chant." So that is good in sense that some day he will come to senses. Otherwise, for the time being, the chant is not very powerful. The fire in wet wood is not powerful. It will create some smoke, although the fire is there. But if you put dry wood, immediately it will be blazing, and your business will be quickly done. This is intelligence. There are many examples. A patient suffering from disease, a doctor said, "You should do; you should not do." So if we follow "You should not do,"
then it becomes quickly recovered. But if he becomes under the
treatment of the doctor at the same time he does all nonsense, then how
it can be successful? It will take time. That is stated in the Chaitanya-caritamrita. Papi jane aparadha achaya prachura. Papi jane aparadha achaya... Offenseless chanting is the ultimate goal. In the
beginning we are not offenseless, but by chanting, chanting, by
practice, we gradually become offenseless. But this is necessary, that
you should be offenseless.
DEVOTEE (3): Srila Prabhupada, it's very difficult to control my mind when I chant. It wanders.
PRABHUPADA: So what is the controlling of mind? You have to chant and hear, that's all. You have to chant with your tongue, and the sound you hear, that's all. What is the question of mind?
RAMESVARA: Srila Prabhupada, it seems unfortunate that if the devotees cannot live in the temples, then they have to work for some karmi just to support themselves, and then they do not have time to go on the sankirtana party. So it is such mercy to be on the sankirtana party. So it seems very unfortunate that they do not have the time.
PRABHUPADA: No, then they should live in the temple if they want to give service in the sankirtana party.
RAMESVARA: We always try to encourage them to come back to the temple.
PRABHUPADA: Yes. If he does not join the sankirtana party, that does not mean his spiritual life is hampered. He has to follow the rules and regulations. He may not be able to join the sankirtana party, but he must follow the process, rules and regulations. That is wanted. And because he is living outside the temple, therefore he will forget all rules and regulations and do whatever he likes—then it will ruin the whole thing.
DEVOTEE (1): Srila Prabhupada, is it faster if one lives in the temple and goes on the sankirtana party? Is it faster?
PRABHUPADA: That depends on him. Even in the temple, if his mind is in a different subject matter, then how it will help him?
BALI MARDAN: The temple authorities like to preach that anyone who's living outside the temple is going to hell.
PRABHUPADA: Generally.
BALI MARDAN: But even devotees who are following? They like to preach that.
PRABHUPADA: No, that is not. That is not. Just like even in ordinary business, if you transact business in the stock association, you get good business. And outside the stock association you don't get. Because association is there, there are many purchaser and many seller. So if you have to sell, you get immediate purchaser. And if you have to purchase, there is immediate seller. That is... Therefore the stock exchange is there. That is the way, that if we live together in the stock exchange of
devotional service, then you can help me; I can help you. So our
business will go on nicely. And outside the market, you can live three
hundred miles away from the stock exchange. You will not get so many
business. Like that.
DEVOTEE (2): You'll miss the opportunities.
PRABHUPADA: Yes. Therefore it is helpful. If you want to do business, you must take the first opportunity, the greatest opportunity, do your business. That is intelligence. And if we think, "All right, I shall do slowly. In seven hundred lives I shall become perfect," that is another thing.
BALI MARDAN: It is riskier to stay outside.
PRABHUPADA: Oh, yes. Otherwise why you are opening so many centers and making arrangement that "We shall provide you with shelter, with food. These are the facilities. You live here, do whatever is your capacity. Don't sleep, but work." This is our teaching. Satam prasangat, this is also, and Rupa Gosvami says, sato vritteh sadhu-sange sadbhir
bhaktih prasidhyati: "If you live with the association of sadhu,
devotee, then it will be quickly fruitful." And if you live with these
ordinary men, then whatever you have got will be finished very soon.
There is another verse. It is said there that it is preferred to live
within the cage surrounded by fire than to live with the nondevotees.
It is preferred.
BALI MARDAN: Or with those who are too much attached to women also.
PRABHUPADA: Yes. Nondevotee means too much attached to woman. That is the plain fact.
YASHODANANDAN: Also one time in Bombay you told this verse from Chaitanya-charitamrita, sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], sadhu-sanga...
PRABHUPADA: Sarva-shastre kaya, lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya [Cc. Madhya 22.54]. For me, personally, I had the opportunity to talk with my spiritual master not more than ten times in my whole life, not more. It may be less than that. But I tried to follow his instruction, that's all, although I was a grihastha.
BALI MARDAN: You are a much better student than us.
PRABHUPADA: So this is the process. That is the... You sing every day. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, chittete koriya aikya: ["Make
the teachings from the lotus mouth of the spiritual master one with
your heart, and do not desire anything else."]. That is the
process. Wherever you live, if you follow strictly the instruction of guru, then you remain perfect. But if we create, concoct ideas against the instruction of guru, then we are doomed, hell. Yasya
prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi:
["By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of
Krishna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement."]. There is no more shelter, finished. Yasya
prasadat. If guru thinks that "This person, I wanted to
take him back to home, back to Godhead. Now he is going against me. He
is not following," aprasadat, he is displeased, then everything
is finished.
BALI MARDAN: Vaishnavaparadha.
PRABHUPADA: Yes.
DEVOTEE (1): Srila Prabhupada, where does someone derive his authority...
PRABHUPADA: The guru is authority.
DEVOTEE (1): No, I know, but for his actions other than just following the four regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds. He does so many other things during the day. Where does he derive his authority if he's not, let's say, living in the temple?
PRABHUPADA: I do not follow. The authority is guru. You have accepted.
BALI MARDAN: For everything.
JAYATIRTHA: Say I have some outside job, I'm living outside, but I'm not giving 50% of my income. So then that work that I'm doing, is it actually under the authority of the guru?
PRABHUPADA: Then you are not following the instruction of guru. That is plain fact.
JAYATIRTHA: So that means that whole activity during the day, working, that means I am not following the instruction of the guru. It's unauthorized activity.
PRABHUPADA: Yes. If you don't follow the instruction of guru, then you are fallen down immediately. That is the way. Otherwise why you sing, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado . It is my duty to satisfy guru. Otherwise I am nowhere. So if you prefer to be nowhere, then you disobey as you like. But if you want to be steady in your position,
then you have to follow strictly the instruction of guru.
DEVOTEE (1): We can understand all of your instructions simply by reading your books.
PRABHUPADA: Yes. Anyway, follow the instruction. That is required. Follow the instruction. Wherever you remain, it doesn't matter. You are secure. Follow the instruction. Then you are secure anywhere. It doesn't matter. Just like I told you that I saw my Guru Maharaja not more than ten days in my life, but I followed his instruction. I was a grihastha, I
never lived with the Matha, in the temple. It is practical. So many
Godbrothers recommended that "He should be in charge in this Bombay
temple, this, that, that..." Guru Maharaja said, "Yes, better he lives
outside. That is good, and he will do what is needed in due course of
time."
DEVOTEES: Jaya! Haribol!
PRABHUPADA: He said like that. I could not understand at that time what does he expect. Of course, I knew that he wanted me to preach.
YASHODANANDAN: I think you have done this in grand style.
DEVOTEES: Jaya, Prabhupada! Haribol!
PRABHUPADA: Yes, done grand style because I strictly follow the instruction of my Guru Maharaja, that's all. Otherwise I have no strength. I have not played any magic. Did I? Any gold manufacturing? [laughter] Still, I have got better disciples than the gold-manufacturing guru.
YASHODANANDAN: Before you came, many gurus came, but they did not make any pure devotee of Krishna.
PRABHUPADA: How they can? He is not pure devotee of Krishna. How he can do? Krishna-shakti vina nahe nama prachara: "Without being empowered by Krishna nobody can turn a person to become devotee of Krishna." It is not... Artificially, you cannot make. He may make show of gold manufacturing, but he cannot make a devotee of Krishna. That is not
possible.
JAYATIRTHA: So the purpose of having the Society is to show the devotees how they can always be twenty-four hours engaged according to your instruction.
PRABHUPADA: Yes, that is helping one another. If I am deficient, by seeing your example I shall correct myself. This is the idea, not that a fool's paradise: all fools and join together. Not like that. There should be ideal life, at least the leaders, the president, the GBC. They will show the example, and they will follow. Then it is beneficial. And all of them are fools? Then it is fool's paradise. At least, in the blind association, at least if one man has got eyes, then he can lead all the blind men. But
if all of them are blind, then it is fool's paradise. So somehow or
other, we have got now a position. People like us. So we should not
spoil by personal sense gratification. That is my request. If we can
maintain this institution rigidly according to the order, then many
people will be benefited. By seeing our behavior, by character, they
will become. Apani achari prabhu jiveri shikshaya. The
leader should be ideal.
DEVOTEE (1): We should dedicate our lives to preaching this message of Lord Chaitanya.
PRABHUPADA: Yes, preaching, preaching, you will become perfect preacher. Preach only what you have heard from Krishna and guru, that's all. Don't add and subtract. Then you are secure. And if you add some concoction just like somebody says that "I may do whatever I like independently. If I chant, then everything is all right," this is nonsense addition. It is not the fact. That is the danger. Some inexperienced man, he introduces some concoction. Sometimes they say, "Prabhupada said it." More misleading. Yes.